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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 63 post(s) |
Trolly McForumalt
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.09.19 01:27:00 -
[1] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Artyom Hunter wrote:"Lets nerf the drakes ****** damage even more" - Said no one ever.
Yet even after this nerf HML will be on par with the other med long range weapons.
How will the 'short range' weapons compare? IMO HAMs gotta suck a little less and still they'll do less damage. Making HAMs benefit from Guided Missile Precision and rigs would be a good start. IMO that's the main reason people used HMLs over HAMs regardless of engagement range. Even at close ranges HMs hit cruiser hulls harder than HAMs which shouldn't be the case considering that they're cruiser sized weapons. Oh well - we'll see I guess. |
Trolly McForumalt
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.09.19 02:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:
If every ship that used HMLs were good, then yeah you could make that case. But the fact is that HMLs are only good on those ships because of a unique combination of factors specific to the ship and the setup.
On pretty much any other ship they have a status similar to the other long-ranged medium-sized weapons.
Hey I'm at work and don't have EFT handy. Can you please post the following DPS numbers: - HML Caracal at 80km - Beam Omen at 80km - Rail Thorax at 80km - Arty Rupture at 80km - HML Caracal at 50km - Beam Omen at 50km - Rail Thorax at 50km - Arty Rupture at 50km I trust you enough to know you aren't going to whip together complete bullshit unrealistic fits. :) -Liang
Sure. Hey let's also compare the HAM caracal with the blaster thorax, pulse omen and ac rupture. |
Trolly McForumalt
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.09.19 02:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Trolly McForumalt wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:
If every ship that used HMLs were good, then yeah you could make that case. But the fact is that HMLs are only good on those ships because of a unique combination of factors specific to the ship and the setup.
On pretty much any other ship they have a status similar to the other long-ranged medium-sized weapons.
Hey I'm at work and don't have EFT handy. Can you please post the following DPS numbers: - HML Caracal at 80km - Beam Omen at 80km - Rail Thorax at 80km - Arty Rupture at 80km - HML Caracal at 50km - Beam Omen at 50km - Rail Thorax at 50km - Arty Rupture at 50km I trust you enough to know you aren't going to whip together complete bullshit unrealistic fits. :) -Liang Sure. Hey let's also compare the HAM caracal with the blaster thorax, pulse omen and ac rupture. Genuinely curious, though all of those should be changing, with the caracal and omen being significantly buffed, at the same time the change to HML's happens
You might be able to cram on some HAMs after the caracal pg boost but you still won't be able to take advantage of guided missile precision or explosion radius/velocity rigs, which is ludicrous. You're going to need to use extra lo/mid slots to bring HAM dps into line with the current HM dps on anything smaller than a BC. Sounds fun :/ |
Trolly McForumalt
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 03:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Trolly McForumalt wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:
If every ship that used HMLs were good, then yeah you could make that case. But the fact is that HMLs are only good on those ships because of a unique combination of factors specific to the ship and the setup.
On pretty much any other ship they have a status similar to the other long-ranged medium-sized weapons.
Hey I'm at work and don't have EFT handy. Can you please post the following DPS numbers: - HML Caracal at 80km - Beam Omen at 80km - Rail Thorax at 80km - Arty Rupture at 80km - HML Caracal at 50km - Beam Omen at 50km - Rail Thorax at 50km - Arty Rupture at 50km I trust you enough to know you aren't going to whip together complete bullshit unrealistic fits. :) -Liang Sure. Hey let's also compare the HAM caracal with the blaster thorax, pulse omen and ac rupture. Sure, let's compare at the edge of point range: 40km. -Liang
I'll one up your arbitrary choice of distance and say let's compare at the edge of scram range. |
Trolly McForumalt
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.09.19 03:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Trolly McForumalt wrote:I'll one up your arbitrary choice of distance and say let's compare at the edge of scram range. Sure, so now that we've compared HAM Caracal performance at the edge of scram and edge of disruptor range we'll see that HAMs are actually a mostly balanced weapon system. HML, OTOH, is not. Thus it is getting smacked with a nerf bat and HAMs aren't. -Liang
Actually I think they're a little underpowered as they are. If they'd allow GMP and rigs to affect them that would be a decent compromise. I don't see that happening though so I guess we'll see. I would also love a precision version of the 'unguided' missiles but I don't want to be too greedy. Turrets don't get this treatment with their short range counterparts and it irks me just a bit. |
Trolly McForumalt
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.09.19 03:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Trolly McForumalt wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Trolly McForumalt wrote:I'll one up your arbitrary choice of distance and say let's compare at the edge of scram range. Sure, so now that we've compared HAM Caracal performance at the edge of scram and edge of disruptor range we'll see that HAMs are actually a mostly balanced weapon system. HML, OTOH, is not. Thus it is getting smacked with a nerf bat and HAMs aren't. -Liang Actually I think they're a little underpowered as they are. If they'd allow GMP and rigs to affect them that would be a decent compromise. I don't see that happening though so I guess we'll see. I would also love a precision version of the 'unguided' missiles but I don't want to be too greedy. Turrets don't get this treatment with their short range counterparts and it irks me just a bit. I... don't know. Rigs I can see for sure, especially in light of the TE/TC change. GMP though... I dunno. I'd be interested in play testing either way. -Liang
I see it as balance for Caldari having the smallest drone bays in the game - missiles *have* (well ok they don't have to but they should) to do at least decent damage to smaller vessels. In my (somewhat limited) experience with HAMs they just don't do that. |
Trolly McForumalt
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 03:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Trolly McForumalt wrote:
I see it as balance for Caldari having the smallest drone bays in the game - missiles *have* (well ok they don't have to but they should) to do at least decent damage to smaller vessels. In my (somewhat limited) experience with HAMs they just don't do that.
You need to be careful with that. While it's true that sig radius always plays a role in damage mitigation, it also means that it's literally impossible to get "under the guns" of a missile boat. I'm completely fine with missiles having poor damage application to small fry because they're guaranteed to hit*. * This is mostly true. -Liang
I'm gonna slightly disagree with your 'mostly' and come back at ya with 'sorta.' Also you have to consider that frigs can get popped by bigger ships when they approach with zero transversal - missile boats can't do that. |
Trolly McForumalt
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 03:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Trolly McForumalt wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Trolly McForumalt wrote:
I see it as balance for Caldari having the smallest drone bays in the game - missiles *have* (well ok they don't have to but they should) to do at least decent damage to smaller vessels. In my (somewhat limited) experience with HAMs they just don't do that.
You need to be careful with that. While it's true that sig radius always plays a role in damage mitigation, it also means that it's literally impossible to get "under the guns" of a missile boat. I'm completely fine with missiles having poor damage application to small fry because they're guaranteed to hit*. * This is mostly true. -Liang I'm gonna slightly disagree with your 'mostly' and come back at ya with 'sorta.' Also you have to consider that frigs can get popped by bigger ships when they approach with zero transversal - missile boats can't do that. On the other hand, I avoidance tank gun ships all the time. You literally cannot do that with missiles unless you go so damn fast that the missiles never ever hit you (~6.5-7km/s) -Liang Ed: And if you do this, you had better be in a missile ship yourself, because even frigate guns aren't gonna hit **** at that speed.
Well... no you're right to reach the zero damage threshold you have to be moving pretty dang quick but the damage reduction gains for even a moderate speed are pretty substantial for some (most?) of the missile family (cruise missiles, torps, and, relevant to this conversation, HAMs). |
Trolly McForumalt
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 03:54:00 -
[9] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Trolly McForumalt wrote:
Well... no you're right to reach the zero damage threshold you have to be moving pretty dang quick but the damage reduction gains for even a moderate speed are pretty substantial for some (most?) of the missile family (cruise missiles, torps, and, relevant to this conversation, HAMs).
Yes, but the raw HP on small ships like that is pretty low. Allowing missiles to have really good damage projection against small ships would be unquestionably overpowered. -Liang
Well not 'really good' but... we'll say good enough. IMO right it's pretty bad for HAMs (HAM damage against cruiser hulls ain't that great - forget about frigates). |
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